ABNA: Thank you for your time. As the first question, please provide an introduction to Hazrat Fatimah az-Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her).

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: In the Name of Allah the most compassionate the most merciful and our salute be upon Allah's messenger and his family, Allah's family and eternal curse be upon their enemies, Allah's enemies.

When introducing a person or an object, the introducer/definer must be superior and more known compared to the one being introduced/defined; the introducer/definer must be clearer, more known and superior compared to the one being introduced/defined .This is one of the basic principles of logic and philosophy. The reason for this principle is that if the introducer/definer does not have the abovementioned characteristics he will not be completely aware of the characteristics of the one being introduced/defined while the introducer/definer is supposed to know all characteristics of the one being introduced/defined. That's why holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) has said: "Ponder on Allah's bounties not on his essence"[1] Imam Sadiq (Allah's peace be upon him) has said: "Avoid pondering on Allah's essence because it adds to your wonder and bafflement, Allah may not be seen with eyes and may not be described in quantities." [2] Because mankind is unable to grasp Allah and it is Allah who "Allah indeed encompasses all things in (His) knowledge" [3]

With this prologue, it can be inferred that our knowledge of holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him), hazrat Fatima az-Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) and infallible Shiite Imams (Allah's peace be upon them all) is the same; they are impossible to be identified by humans. Holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) has said: "O! Ali, no one has known Allah as he deserves except me and you and no one has known you as you deserve except Allah and me" [4] Elsewhere he has said: "O! Ali, no one knows Allah except you and me, and no one knows me except Allah and you and no one knows you except Allah and me." [5] This tradition from holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) is not a compliment. It is the reality and the truth. It means if these characters are to be known and identified, it should be done by similar characters.

Therefore we should ask holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) who Fatima az-Zahra was; not me or people similar to me with limited acquired knowledge while acquired knowledge is really limited. Then if hazrat Fatima az-Zahra is to be introduced she should be introduced by her esteemed father, her spouse or Allah. Therefore we should refer to them to see what they state about her.

ABNA: How do Allah and holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) introduce hazrat Fatima az-Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her)?
 

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: When we look at how Allah and holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) have introduced hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) we find out that they have considered hazrat Fatima az-Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) as the central point of creation. Allah has depicted the whole world as a circle whose center is hazrat Fatima az-Zahra.

For instance, in a tradition called "kisa' [a single piece overall garment]", Gabriel asks: "O! Allah, who are under the kisa? In His response, Allah does not say they are holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) and his children rather He says: "they are Fatima, her father, her husband and her children". That means the center of the circle. Allah has hazrat Fatima az-Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) as the key to know her father, husband and children. Then it is obvious that this lady is the real center of prophecy and welayah . In other words it is as if hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) connects prophecy towelayah.

Holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) calls her "her father's mother". Some does not understand the meaning of this statement. It means that hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) is the central truth and reality. Thus "Fatima and her father" means that if hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) did not exist, holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) had not had mother/central point; like a book without binding.

Another element that helps us know hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) is holy Prophet's (Allah's peace be upon him) strange affection for her. The norm is to kiss Imam or leader's hands; the follower kisses Imam's hands. In some cases however holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) would kiss his daughter's hands. Traditions say whenever holy Messenger (Allah's peace be upon him) entered her house, she would stand up and kiss her father's hands. Whenever Fatima (Allah's peace be upon her) entered holy Prophet's (Allah's peace be upon him) house he would place her in his own place and kiss her hands. What should we do with these traditions? Would holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) with his high rank kiss this lady's hands if she was not at a high level?

Her other unique virtue is the story of her birth. During first Fatemiya [mourning days for hazrat Fatima's martyrdom], I delivered a sermon and I mentioned this issue. To interpret the meaning of kawthar [6], interpreters have tried to find the meaning of the term kawthar and have assumed it as meaning "large amount of goodness". Then they have tried to explain how hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) has been "large amount of goodness" and have mentioned some aspects. I think these interpretations are valuable however kawthar may have another meaning and that is hazrat Zahra's (Allah's peace be upon her) birth. Holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) has sit with some people in "Abtah" when Gabriel suddenly descended and said: "O! Holy Prophet, do not go to hazrat Khadija's [his wife] house from tonight on and worship Allah for forty days. He did not visit hazrat Khadija and stayed at "Umm Hani's"house. At fortieth night, a meal was brought for him from heaven including dates, grapes and kawthar[a pond in heaven] water. Holy messenger (Allah's peace be upon him) had this meal and then visited hazrat Khadija and hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) was conceived from that souvenir from heaven. It is likely that hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) is called kawthar because she is created from kawthar water; Allah says we bestowed you kawthar it means we have created hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) from kawthar water. I have explored references but I have not found such a thing even about holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) being created from kawthar water; nor about Amir al-Mo'menin Ali (Allah's peace be upon him); and not about Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein (Allah's peace be upon them). It is only about hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her). There is a tradition in Sunni collections where "Aisha" is quoted as saying: "Holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) would kiss his daughter Fatima (Allah's peace be upon her) a lot. I questioned this and said: it is not prudent to kiss a married girl! He answered: do not say this, I smell the scent of heaven from her".

Hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) has a high status in infallible Shiite Imam's (Allah's peace be upon them all) statements. For example Imam Hassan Askari (Allah's peace be upon him) says:"We are Allah's proof for people [and His creation] and hazrat Fatima (Allah's peace be upon her) is Allah's proof for us." [7] Therefore she is a role model and proof for elites.

These traditions are only a small number of them that represents highest status for hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her)

ABNA: Some wonder and would ask: "Hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) was a lady with characteristics of fourteen centuries ago. How can we claim she can still be our role model in 21^stcentury?

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: It is not true that she has been specifically for a specific time in early days of Islam. From traditions that we mentioned and many other issues that we did not mention, it is almost inferred that she is not specifically for fourteen centuries ago. This lady's existence has been central from pre-eternity and will be for eternity. We did not have time in this interview to explain the period before her birth. Hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) has been the center of creation even before her material existence.

In essence, hazrat Zahra's (Allah's peace be upon her) status is higher than we can state and describe and better say higher than we can grasp. However, from what Allah, holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) and infallible Shiite Imams (Allah's peace be upon them all) have said we can understand that her blessed existence lasts forever and her grandeur and magnificence will be preserved by Allah's will up to the day of judgment and will be a role model for people.

ABNA: There is another question here and that is her unique virtues and high status that baffle some people. Similar to this bafflement but in lower levels is about hazrat Fatima Ma'soomah (Allah's peace be upon him) [seven Imam's daughter buried in Qom, Iran]. These people ask how these people, despite their low age, have reached a status that holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) has had treated her in such way or seventh Imam, Imam Moosa bin Ja'far (Allah's peace be upon him) has said about hazrat Ma'sooma (Allah's peace be upon her): "may his father be sacrificed for her". Please provide us with an explanation in this regard.

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: This is an obvious fact. If these entities are considered beyond our grasp with respect to their essence and existence, the issue will be solved.

However it should be noted that despite their supernatural existence, these distinguished humans were commanded to act normally and naturally. They did not try to show their super-naturalness in the society; because people and society would become baffled. In traditions we read that one day holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) was walking with Imam Ali (Allah's peace be upon him) and said to him: " My dear Ali, I did not introduce you to people as you deserve because if I had done so, people would have taken the dust under your feet and rub it to their eyes!".

ABNA: Why didn't holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) tell Imam Ali's (Allah's peace be upon him) real status?

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: One reason has been obtained by "Hussein bin Rooh" from hazrat Baqiyat Allah (Allah's peace be upon him) [twelfth Imam]. Imam Zaman (Allah's peace be upon him) [twelfth Imam] told Hussein bin Rooh: "They could not tell the whole truth because if people had figured out about his status they would have lost Allah and worship Imam Ali (Allah's peace be upon him) in mosques".

Another reason is that in that case people would consider Imam Ali (Allah's peace be upon him) beyond human beings and therefore they are unable to take Imam Ali (Allah's peace be upon him) as their role model. Therefore holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) said: "Say: I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one God�." [8] why did they say this? This sentence emphasizes that they do not leave the humans' world so that if they invite people to Allah, people would not say that they are not from our world. They tried to say we are like you people; we would eat; we would sleep; in some cases they would intentionally do something to show they are like ordinary people not to be taken as an extraordinary person.

ABNA: So their status is not an acquired one therefore it is not related to their short or long age to baffle people.

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: Thar's correct; their personality is not acquired. The age is an important factor when we talk about people whose knowledge and status are acquired like us. It depends on how much we have tried; but if Allah grants someone a status it is not acquired. But Imams' knowledge (Allah's peace be upon them) is inspired. About people other than Imams it is Allah's grace and inspirations they receive from Allah that they have these positions.

ABNA: With all those traditions about hazrat Fatima's (Allah's peace be upon her) virtues in Shiite or non-Shiite collections, caliphs would have known about these virtues better than anyone else. The question here is why they accepted attacking hazrat Fatima's (Allah's peace be upon her) house and those events written down in history? This question has caused some satellite channels, misusing young people's unawareness, deny these events. They even propagate that caliphs had very good relations with hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) and Imam Alli (Allah's peace be upon him) which is against what is even in "Sahih Bukhari". Please provide us with an explanation.

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: Yes they knew Ahlul Bayt's (Allah's peace be upon them) position better than us because they would listen to holy Prophet's (Allah's peace be upon him) sermons and statements. They have even narrated hazrat Zahra's (Allah's peace be upon her) virtues themselves. Therefore Sunni scholars do not deny the event of attacking her house because it is explicitly or implicitly written down in their sahih collections making it impossible for them to officially deny that event rather they try to justify it. They justify it saying that caliphs had control over all matters and they were so-called "hakim of shari'ah" [the ruler/judge of shari'a i.e. Islamic law] and the ruler can do whatever he considers as the expedience of Islam and Muslims. They have chosen this kind of justification not paying attention to its validity or invalidity. Worse than this some of them �not all of them- try to justify "Yazid bin Mo'awia's" action [in murdering Imam Hussein (Allah's peace be upon him) and his sons, relatives and companions]. However it has been criticized by their scholars.

This justification is undoubtedly incorrect and can be refuted. I have a sweet memory of a debate I had with their scholars in Mecca.

ABNA: Please share it with our readers.

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: During Hajj [pilgrimage to Mecca] I had a debate with one of their great scholars in Masjid al-Haram attended by many hajis [pilgrims] from different countries. I talked to him with their own language without any contempt or disrespect to their sacred beliefs. The debate lasted up to two hours and had really amazing effects. All members of shurta [Saudi Arabian Police] had encircled us and were listening. It lasted up to midnight and our friends from Shiraz and Isfahan asked me: "Please stop for the sake of your forefather [Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany is sayyid i.e. his lineage goes back to holy Prophet's (Allah's peace be upon him) household]; but since I used only verses from Quran and traditions, they liked it so much that next day when I decided to go Masjid al-Haram Iranians encircled me and told me they would come because Saudis may disturb you! But we went and it was vice versa. Asheikh cried: "The scholar came� Holy Prophet's (Allah's peace be upon him) son came �" Some attendants of haram [holy places in Mecca] came and escorted us during tawaf [circumambulation]

ABNA: When was it?

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: It was in 1976.

ABNA: How did you answer their justification and question?

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: First I told them: "Do you believe in the traditions written down in sahihbooks [Sunni compilations of traditions accepted by them as the most reliable sources]?" They replied: "Yes, we believe in them." I said: "Isn't this brought up in sahih books that hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) did not talk to sheikhayn [two initial caliphs]?" [9] They said: "That's true". I said: "So if caliphs or rulers were legitimate why didn't Fatima az-Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) who is infallible and pure by Quran's testimony talk to them?"

Second I used their justification for the event of attacking hazrat Fatima's (Allah's peace be upon her) house. They were happy and said:" Thank you, our great sayyid [in Arabic here means our master], you made a great statement!" Then I said:" But your justification/evidence is wrong." They asked: "Why?" I said: "Your justification is true only if holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) had not say anything about the ruler of the state. But holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) is the legislator himself and he has made some restrictions for the ruler and has not allowed him to do whatever he desires. Rather he has said: "O people! I swear to Allah that nothing brings you closer to heaven and farther from hell except what I have ordered you to do and nothing brings you closer to hell and farther from heaven except what I have ordered you not to do." [10] Then holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) has not allowed the ruler to do whatever he desires and distance from Allah's satisfaction by disrespecting the house of revelation [hazrat Fatima's (Allah's peace be upon her) house]."

I asked that wahhabi scholar: "Do you deny that holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) has urged Muslims including the ruler to respect people �and more importantly the house of revelation? Hadn't he said that individuals should not be violated this way?" When I made these statements they paused and did not have any choice but to accept because I quoted these traditions from their own books. I told them: "This part of their action is what we question. We do not disrespect them but how can we accept their performance based on what holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) has said? With all those advices made by holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) would you accept that justification if you were there?

The third answer is that what these dear brothers do not pay attention to is that all secondary rulings follow primary ones. In other words secondary rulings never suppress primary rulings. Amir al-Mo'mein Imam Ali's (Allah's peace be upon him) and hazrat Zahra's (Allah's peace be upon her) status is among the undeniable facts of Quran and traditions which are among the main parts of the religion to which all other rulings �such as ruler's performance- falls secondary. These secondary issues and attacking her house and setting its door on fire falls secondary to Imam Ali's (Allah's peace be upon him) and hazrat Zahra's (Allah's peace be upon her) status. Is Imam Ali's (Allah's peace be upon him) status like ours? No they had divine characteristics and how they have been treated was not correct."

In essence I used their own method to answer their question and it had a great effect.

ABNA: Based on this memory, what advices do you have for Shiite and Sunni Muslims in their dialogues and debates?

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: I advise Shiite Muslims to enter dialogues without disrespecting individuals and clarify Ahlul Bayt's (Allah's peace be upon them) status for them. If their status is clarified for the opposite group and they accept this status other issues will be resolved. If Shiites use logic and moderate tone Sunnis will be easily convinced.

I advise our Sunni brothers to be kindly sit and debate and listen and they will figure out that their justifications are not correct even according to their own books.

ABNA: Another question is hazrat Zahra's (Allah's peace be upon her) martyrdom. They have raised a question in these years that if hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) was martyred and not passed away due to natural causes why they printed in calendars "The demise anniversary of hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her)" but in recent years they print "The martyrdom anniversary of hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her)"?!"

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: Using the term "martyrdom" does not depend on calendars and is not limited to recent years. This term has been explicitly used in statements by Ahlul Bayt (Allah's peace be upon them). For example Imam Moosa bin Ja'far [seventh Imam] (Allah's peace be upon him) has applied martyrdom and has said: "Fatima (Allah's peace be upon her) is truly a sincere martyr" [11]Therefore it is clear that beating her arm damaged her body and she passed away �despite her young age. Therefore applying the term "martyrdom" for her is not a novel issue created by our contemporaries.

But in recent years [before Islamic revolution] they would print demise because firstly system was not governed by Ahlul Bayt (Allah's peace be upon them) lovers. However after Islamic republic of Iran was established the term "martyrdom" has been used in calendars. Secondly wahhabis did not want to oppose Shiites like this. But now that they feel threatened by Shiites they have decided not to allow the spread of facts about Ahlul Bayt's (Allah's peace be upon them) status. These actions obviously cause reactions.

ABNA: Since hazrat Mohsen's (Allah's peace be upon him) abortion and martyrdom [he was hazrat Fatima's last son (Allah's peace be upon both of them)] happened during initial days of the attack to hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) some mourning procession are held in Qom called "Mohseniya Days" and some say Shiites are encompassed with sadness and mourning. Other groups say that because wahhabis have concentrated on Fatemiya, holding Mohseniya is a desired action. What is your opinion?

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: Firstly mourning sessions does not lead to sadness and depression of Muslims; rather these mourning sessions have kept Islam alive. Shiites consider these mourning sessions as their honor not that they are forced.

Secondly about Mohsenyia days these are some measures done by some of our friends and depend on their tendencies. Holding mourning sessions on different occasions is to respect Ahlul Bayt (Allah's peace be upon them); not for any other reason. As I said, these reactions are caused by those actions that I mentioned.

Anyway there is nothing wrong with holding these sessions. It is related to affections and they are not obligatory. The reason is the love and affection that causes people to hold mourning sessions.

ABNA:Would you please let us have some ethical questions as well.

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: Please, go ahead.

ABNA: One of the issues that is important for Muslims �and even followers of other religions and those who believe in a creator- is "prayer and supplication". One of the bright manifestations of hazrat Zahra's (Allah's peace be upon her) lifestyle is "prayer and supplication" which plays a pivotal role in her life.

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: This tradition is narrated from holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him) that he said: "Do you want me to tell you what the prophets' weapon is?" His companions said: "Yes" He said: "Prophets' weapon was prayer." [12]

Prayer is so important that Allah says in Quran: "Say: My Lord would not care for you were it not for your prayer" [13] If you did not pray Allah would not pay attention to you. Why is so important to pray? Because it is "the connection between Allah and His creation" The created should always bow down before the creator and keep in contact to receive His bounties. On the other hand, the duty of a servant is that he does not forget his creator and show his smallness before Him; otherwise he is not a good servant.

Therefore the reality of prayer is the connection between the creator and the created. Who needs this connection? Why should this connection be around? The reason is that the created need this connection. What do we have to make us independent from Allah? We really have nothing. We are needy and Allah is rich. We need Him and it is related to our essence. If we do not pray this is against our nature. That is why he has said: "O men! You are they who stand in need of Allah, and Allah is He Who is the Self-sufficient, the Praised One" [14]

Thus it is the duty of an aware servant and indicates his/her attention to the creator. When people asked Amir al-Mo'menin (Allah's peace be upon him): "Why do you pray and supplicate so much?" He would say: "See how my cousin [holy Prophet (Allah's peace be upon him)] has been that Quran says: "We have not revealed the Quran to you that you may put yourself into trouble" [15]." Holy Prophet would stand for prayers so much that his toes would swell.

Imam Hassan (Allah's peace be upon him) says: "One night I noticed my mother was praying. She prayed until dawn but she did not pray for us rather she prayed for other people. I asked her the reason. She replied: "Neighbors first then the family" It means we should first pray for others then for ourselves and it indicates deep knowledge; her knowledge of her creator. Everyone worships Allah according to the level of his/her knowledge of Him. This way prayer shows her unique knowledge of Allah.

ABNA: Her prayers were not for material things. But nowadays people think that prayer means to ask Allah to grant them material things. Please explain what aspects we should take into account while praying.

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: As we said earlier, prayer is in fact the connection. Human should keep this connection; no matter what this connection is for. It is obvious that what someone prays for depends on his/her knowledge and understanding. The more perfect and knowledgeable the person is the better and higher things he would pray for.

Prayer is in fact a kind of connection between the created and the creator and it is not necessary to be about spiritual issues. There is nothing wrong with praying for material things; Allah has said Himself that: "Ask Me for the salt of your food and grass for your cattle." Therefore asking material things is also praying and is not unaccepted.

ABNA: We have a question in the field of family and child rearing. Nowadays with respect to attacks on the institution of family many people �especially Ahlul Bayt (Allah's peace be upon them) followers- need this. How can we use hazrat Zahra's (Allah's peace be upon her) lifestyle to rear our children.

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: It needs a long time to discuss but in essence the quality of their family life is a lesson for everyone. Pay attention to this fact that hazrat Zeinab (Allah's peace be upon her) and hazrat Umm Kolthoum (Allah's peace be upon her) were not Imams however they were reared in way this school of thought in such a way that when we study their life we see all their behaviors have been according to Allah's satisfaction from all aspects. Certainly they had been reared by their mother, hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her); because mothers play a bigger role in child rearing. Father is also important but mother rears the children more. So if we want to rear our children with high quality we should walk like hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her).

Hazrat Zahra (Allah's peace be upon her) reared hazrat Zeinab (Allah's peace be upon her) in such a way that not only practices self-denial herself for her brother Imam Hussein (Allah's peace be upon him) but she also encourages her children to do the same. Or you can look at Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein's (Allah's peace be upon both of them) affection, kindness and generosity. These facts all shows the quality of rearing.

ABNA: If possible, please offer some objective examples.

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: Childrearing is mainly to teach them to follow divine and social rules. If you study any of Imam's life you would see that they respected people a lot; they valued their parents a lot; they were kind and affectionate.

For example in history we read that Imam Hussein was asleep and his face was in the sunlight. Hazrat Zeinab (Allah's peace be upon her) brought her chador and blocked the sunlight to protect his brother's face. Amir al-Mo'menin (Allah's peace be upon him) saw this action and his mood changed [became sad]. They asked him: "why did your mood change?" and he replied: "I remember Karbala."

These are examples from their life and the affections of brother and sister for each other. We are unable to talk in this field too much; we are not in that position but at least we know that we should take them as role models regarding their affections and desired attributes.

ABNA: Have you seen a document that shows the infallibles (Allah's peace be upon them) have used physical punishment as a method to rear their children?

Ayatollah Alavi Gorgany: I have not seen any case. Basically their method of rearing was such that beating and physical punishment was not necessary. Their method was so called a cultural method. However, they would ordinary reprimands. In some cases they have asked their children why something happened. But I have not seen any case of physical punishment and beating. They would advise their children in such a way that physical punishment was not necessary.

ABNA: Thank you for your time.

References:

1-Al-Mu'jam al-Kabir, Tabrani

2- Wasa'el al-Shi'a, vol.16, p.197

3-Quran 65:13

4-Manaqib, Ibn Shahr Ashoub, vol.3, p.268

5-Rawdhat al-Muttaqin, vol.13, p.273

6-Quran 108:1

7-Tafseer Atyab al-Bayan, vol.13, p.236

8-Quran 18:12

9-Sahih Bukhari, vol.5, p.82 (chapter about Khaybar war) and Sahih Muslem, vol.5, p.153 (kitab al-Jihad)

10-Usul Kafi, vol.2, p.74

11- Usul Kafi, vol.1, p.458

12- Usul Kafi, vol.2, p.468

13-Quran 25:77

14-Quran 35:15

15-Quran 20:2